Jeff, Jeff, Jeff.....I thought I was the only one reading the blog at 1am....EXCELLENT POST.....the visuals really put things into perspective....this is why you are #1 with all of us....thanks buddy....now get some rest, i'm gonna try...

Hey Jeff-

You’re not rambling at all- great post as always. The changes in the market have forced a lot of us to look at our trading styles, and your comments are dead on.

Since I am not able to fuel losses with funds generated from outside the market, I am in this for the long term. I may be making short term trades, but my capital is precious- once it's gone it's gone, hence I am still a long term trader in some sense of the word.

We are all living longer, and retirement for many is becoming a thing of the past. One of the beauties of trading it seems to me is that as long as I still have my marbles, and can peck on a keyboard, I can be successful at this game to generate income. Many of us in the Kohler blog community are relatively new at this (speaking for myself), and should be both careful and patient as we gain experience. If you’re "blowing up accounts", it’s time for a time out.

This is coming from a guy who is up 2% YTD. Pretty ugly compared to the broad market. However, I feel the trading experience I have gained in the last year, and education I’ve gained from your blog and IT, is invaluable for the long term. If I can hang in there while a green horn, I believe I can eventually far out perform the indices. My goal is one day to be able to generate a living income through trading (though I might be eating beans and rice every day).

Thanks Jeff.

Peter V

Long: Bean-o
Short: Blowing up accounts

there are more os us burning the midnight oil. Love the post Jeff. This has been an area of learning for me again and agian. One day I will have a handle on it in the mean time, it seems I am at the best school in the industry with best teacher and best class mates.
We will all suceed if we continue following the rules layed out here.

Thanks for the efforts Jeff and fellow addicts.

Mahmood

I could sleep if I only tried it once and a while…

JK! Nicely done! One of the best yet! There are so many it is hard to pick a favorite.

Without the “…option addict exit” strategy, I would probably be dead in the water right now. Since I started reading this blog, I have had so many 100% plus trades. I would have never realized that this relatively unemotional process/strategy existed. I am definitely indebted to you and our fellow addicts for drilling this into my head.

My current challenge now is cutting losers shorter (this is a learning process). I have to follow my exit rules a little tighter, especially during this volatile market. Staying in a trade that I might have stayed in during a less volatile stretch of a trending market, positioned towards the far outside of my crayon in the sand, could crush my risk calculation.

What I have learned this month, the hard way:
- Follow my rules!
- Don’t exit until the trend is broken or my predetermined exit is reached whichever is sooner!
- Don’t over trade!
- Buy enough time!
- When exiting a trade because I am running out of time on the option, wait for a suitable reentry instead of picking up where I left off!
- Don’t think I am above the market! Since I am below most things (except for dwarfs) I should have already known this!

I missed out on a couple trades for exiting after a violation of my trend lines but not the trend or pattern. PVTB comes to mind. I exited it 6/15, three days before the big gap down. To my defense, I entered it on 5/8 after it retested the first ascending triangle break out. How I could have stayed in this trade if my line in the sand wasn’t a diagonal trend line on a triangle breakout, instead it should have been a breach of the breakout point. So the story goes, learn from it and move on. Like the barber says, “Next!”

I am real heavy on bearish plays right now. What say everyone else?

Long: Beer, OAES (option addict exit strategy), CAT, DECK, GOOG, MMM, NVTL, PCP, POT

Short: Sleep, AMAG, ALB, FPL, DNA, HNI, JEF, LCC, LVS, PFCB, ROG, TOL, UNFI

Shorts are doing real well, most longs are on shaky ground. Today I exited the following long positions: PCU, X (one day outside my line, bad move…), ½ STR, CHK

Jeff,

Thank you, good illustration of the differences of trend vs. swing vs. emotional trading. Hard and fast examples help 'us' understand what the differences are and how to manage them. 'Manage' means rules that may need to be modified, (read as improved upon), as we learn and grow, which in-turn should be helping us to manage our emotional actions. For me personally, I've come a long way and while an extremely disciplined person, if not careful could get emotional about my trades. I've actually found it easier to follow what I see as my rules and 'lines' (areas), taking much of the guesswork out of the equation. I don't get 'as' emotional any longer (I'm still somewhat human), I just react to the what's happening in my trade, typically at the end of the day.

The things you impart to us are as informational and unemotional as you intend, they are as they should be, just the facts!

John Logan, Great comment above: "Like the barber says, 'Next!'” Heard it many times, although this succinctly captures the concept, once you're done with a trade, "learn from it and move on", excellent! Another crystallized moment, thanks!

Jeff-

Can't sleep either and thought I'd check the blog. Obsess much?! Yes, I do! I love the visuals. Very cool. I think Chip's word usage: 'succinctly' pretty much says it all. Thanks!

Now I'm off to get a few hours of sleep.

liz

What a great suprise to wake up to! Jeff, thanks for thinking of us during your personal time!

Jeff,
Wow, what a nice surprise. I couldn't sleep and got up at 5:00. Nice to see the post. I did have reasons for getting INTO the trades I did, but didn't have defined exit points. That's why I'm holding the bag on some trades. And, yes, I was one of the KIM emotional traders, that took profits and then got back in. I see that I need to sit down and decide how I am going to exit trades. It is costing me profits and money.

Thanks, Jeff.

Michelle

This comment has been removed by the author.

GTRC being acquired for $63/share!!!

I'm noticing a pattern to these buyouts. First, you see an incredible explosive breakout pattern on ridiculous volume. Next, often times JUST BEFORE the breakout, there's a selloff (which i have fell victim to a few times) and out of nowhere...POOF...The buyout!

Congrats to the longs, and most of all, thank you Jeff. This was the biggest trade of my career so far!!!

But always remember, even as a swing trader, you can always get back in! I was in KIM and got out at the first sign of retest, and got back in on the next down swing! I get alot of grief from my friends who want to talk about all the money I spend on trade costs...believe me, doesn't even come close to what i can make on the trade if done right! Have a good day all

Jeff,

Great post and great example. Thank you!

I have a question on this trade exactly. I took the KIM trade, rode the first leg down and exited my swing trade just about where your first illustration showed the exit. Once the stock came back up and started back down, I took the trade again for another ride down. Are you saying that a trend trader would have stayed in the one trade all the way up and down whereas a swing trader would do what I have done? Are you saying one style is better than the other or just different?

I meant just before the BUYOUT, not the Breakout.

Cant believe GTRC ... sold it yesterday for a small loss .... However, I can't complain I did get PENN.

Jeff, i really learn from reading from your blog. I am a visual learner, so your pictures (and especially videos) are very helpful. I was wondering if you could do more videos? I love them. One other thing, often times I would like to view what you are posting during the day, but my work will not allow streaming video. I was wondering if there was a way for me to download your videos directly to my desktop? If i can download them locally, i can view them.

Just saw the news on GTRC. It's my first takeover! Woohoo!

Jeff, you have certainly struck a nerve in my trading style. I steadly oscilate between swing and trend trading. Seemingly trying to time the markets can be very exhausted. Patience seems to be golden when enforced with a steadfast PLAN. Thanks Again,

Btett,

Thanks for the heads up on GTRC the 13th of June when it was breaking out. I took a position on the breakout and have held onto it because it had not reached its target nor broken support. It is good to see that patience is rewarded, even though luck was involved on this buyout.

Jeff,

Thank you for your post on trend and swing trading. It has crystalized the type of trader I am striving to become. In this choppy market it has been more difficult to to trade with the trend, since many of my positions, the trend has broken down. But my rules are if the trend or support is broken it is time to get out of the trade. This is basic knowledge, but with your many helpful reminders, it does sink in.

Jon P.
OC, Oregon

Michelle,

CME

Draw a trendline from the top of the candles around 1/24, to the top of the candles around 4/17, 4/18 area.

Draw another trendline from the bottom of the candle on 2/27 through the bottom of the candle on 4/23.

There is your triangle.

Now, draw a horizontal line at the $560 area. Resistance to as far back as about the end of Nov last year.

See how CME broke out of the bottom of the triangle on 4/24? That is when CME broke out to the downside. What would we expect this stock to do when it got back to the retest of the $560 area?

Yup, re-test, and bounce back down. You bought a call when a Put would have been the better play, especially after seeing the candle on 6/12 (a hanging man, at resistance) which was confirmed the day you bought a call, 6/14.


If you were to ask me where do I see support at this point, I would look for some at about $527ish area, and see if it holds.....


Now, that being said, someone else may look at this chart and see something completely different than me.

Hope this helps. Keep your chin up.

SKX and USU

Michelle,

CME..I meant hang man on 6/13....

Thanks, Bob.

Michelle

Jeff,

Great post, especially the part about it's possible for anyone even though it may not happen. I am learning with real money, the paper doesn't do a thing for me. So I took 10K and am doing it 1 option contract at a time. On patterns I found I need to just pull out when it completes. Hit the target and jet or I end up a mess staying in thinking that it may continue further. On my trend trades I get in on a bounce and just use a stop based on the stock price breaking the trend. Now.... I must stick my rules, funny how we get burned when we break them and yet we always feel compelled to break them again and again.

GBAHARDCORE

Today and tomorrow gonna be pivotal days...(pivotal, pivitil, pivatal, how the heck you spell this..)

Bob,
I am second-guessing everything I do. Don't want to just close out eveything, because that might cause me to incur even more loss.
I see POT support at 73
I see MLM support at 158
I see DE support at 119

They are all at or around support right now. They are stock plays.
Does this look right to you?

Michelle

Bob,
You had it right he first time, pivotal.

What time does the Fed speak?


Michelle

SPWR low risk and a mover

Congrats to everyone in GTRC. You guys rock! Okay, sorry for the pun. Couldn't help it.

Bob- you're funny!

Michelle- I don't you asked Bob but I'm giving you my 0.02 on POT. It has been using the 10 day moving average as a support level for the last few months. There's also horizontal support around 71 and around 75.

liz

Thanks, Liz.

Also, does anyone know where the CANSLIM search is? I can't find it on the new toolbox.

Michelle

POT - Great entry or broken trend??

Jeff ... absolutely excellent example that I can use. I too have waivered between the two styles but have better developed the OAE (Option Addict Exit) strategy as I have learned to tame emotions .... I've read the archives .. but you taking time at night to throw this one our way is among one of the 'Addict Best' in my view.

THANKS to all for the great comments too.

And CONGRATS to you GTRC folks .. never entered this one but celebrate your great wins! :))

Liz, just looked at my POT chart. I have lines drawn at 75 and 70.
I have support for NOV at around 100.

Michelle,


POT..at current price ($73ish) at my diag trendline for support.

MLM..support at $152ish

DE..MAYBE support at $118-$119, clearer support at $115ish

The Fed begins its two day meeting today, so don't think they'll make their proclamation until tomorrow, Thursday.

Got into a FFH put several days ago. Looks like finally today it is thinking about heading down again.

Michelle

Thanks, Bob.
I feel like a small child having to have his hand held. Thanks for holding my hand and getting me safely across the street. Someday I hope to be a grown-up trader.
Sorry about the child analogy. That's what I relate to these days.

Michelle

CMI is retesting that massive triangle breakout today and holding it nicely, if you're looking to get into a great bullish play amidst all this madness.

Hi Michelle,

I've got horizontal support drawn on POT at 71 and 75 as well. I'm also sweating whether to get out of it today or not. Another ugly day it appears.

I thought ol' PCAR was going to resume what looked like an asc. triangle but looks like it fell off the planet. Probably should have sold that one. Doh. Live and learn. I'm getting close to hitting the sidelines for awhile and going back to the books.

James H.

Fed Announcement - around 1PM Central - Thursday

ascending triangle on NM

gfi broke down

James,
I am trying to give it some room.
My profit is gone, but I bought it at 71, so I'm not hurting too badly there. I will probably hold on unless it breaks the 70 support. Boy it dipped down early this morn, but the bulls pushed back.

Michelle

CROX - down 3+ - below support ..... being advised by some as short term PUT play ....

Jeff, you are reading my mind. I think I posted yesterday that swing trading (Stephen style) may be more for me. That is what I concluded in the beginning and before I had it down I tried to become Jeff and that patience thing. I just held good trades with good entries and good sizing too long (for me). This is the conclusion I came to last night with Pam and it is amazing to get up this morning and read it on the blog. Jeff, somehow you have a inituitive ability to see our feable writings (well at least mine, not Liz, Bob (Ramio), Brett...) and "see" what is going on at a deeper level.
Today I am scaling back my trading. I tightened some of my stops and have stopped or closed about four so far. I know I have more draw down on my account before I get things under control and start fresh but I am ok with that.
Fortunately, I was able to sleep and I think that red wine was the trick.
Thanks again everyone, what a community!

I expect the dow to close up 150 today. I'm laying it out there. There is going to be a MONSTER rally today.

Get ready addicts.

Bob,
What I saw on CME was 5/10 starting there, higher highs and higher lows. May 14ish next one, and 6/14 next one. Diaganol.
Could it be read that way? Obviously it will be what it is, just trying to see if I had ANY basis at all for the trade I took.
That one candle didn't look like a hanging man to me, too long on the top. That's what I saw. Obviously if it doesn't rebound I WAS WRONG, but just trying to learn from this experience so I don't do it again.

Thanks for all your help,
Michelle

Jeff, Thank you so much for your help. I have one question on the KIM exits. In fig #1, the swing trade exit is on 5-29. On fig #3, the trend trade exit is also on 5-29. Am I seeing this wrong? I would think that the swing trade would be on 5-29 but the trend trader would still be in. Maybe I'm having a blonde moment.

Michelle, The CANSLIM search: Click on 'stategies' on the left side toolbar then click on 'archives' of the Momentum Searches and scroll down to it.

--Patti

Bob (and Pam),
I am doing much better today, too.
Jeff's post helped. I think with some of my trades I need to swing trade (options especially) because my emotions are not in check enough to let it retrace. But on my longer term plays (stocks like POT and MLM) I am trying to watch my charts and hang in there. I think what I also found out (thanks to everybody's help) is that I am not entering at the dip and so that accounts for losses even on longer term trades.
Hope some of this helps you, because it seems like we are at about the same place.

Michelle

Thank you, thank you, Patti.
I am reading the book and I would like to track some stocks while I read to learn some of this stuff.
I think it might help on some of my investment trades.

Brett,
Buddy, you have been right soooo many times. I sure hope you are now. I am trying to fight emotions and hang onto my trades that are doing okay (even though my account doesn't reflect it.) I am just trying to watch the charts on them.
BULL:
POT
MLM
CME
AAPL
GOOG
SLB
GRMN
Bear:
KIM
FFH
LCC
BSC

Oh, still holding NOV stock (small)

Michelle

Looks like BSC will be kind enough to retest for all of us to load up again.

Safe to say Risk Management is a) the most important area for my trading success b) the area I've focused on least c) the main reason I went from 40-50% gains in almost all the options I currently hold to at LEAST 20% current losses in the ones I haven't sold yet (and I still have most of them).

I've battled with the idea of hard stops versus watching my options myself. I've struggled with more options vs. more stocks. My most recent debacle came when the market went on its last several day flip flop and I had two days back to back where I was in court from 9 a.m. to 6 p.m. (and didn't expect to be there all day), I was loaded up with options, and couldn't get away to check on my options and had zero hard stops in place. I went from big profits to substantial losses pretty quick.

Rather than than take a loss, I had HOPE - of course ... they will turn around lol. Well they have gone down from there. God bless the emotional trader. Actually at that point none of my stocks had broken important trendlines, but since I had bought alot of them at the wrong times, I was down a good bit of money. I had owned most of them before and my options had expired in June, so I just rebought them without any concern for timimg - oops.

Oh well, vent time over. Sorry for the long post. I'm still long in some but hopefully after the self realization of this post and today's market I'll move on from some.

Current holdings - advice appreciated. Tell me I'm crazy if ya like. (all calls)
AAPL JUL 120
BUCY JUL 65
DECK SEP 95
ESRX AUG 50
MLM OCT 170
PCAR AUG 95
PCP SEP 120
POT SEP 83.375
RL AUG 100
VSEA AUG 45

Bah above hugely long post by James H. - sorry again for length and forgetting name - thx guys.

James H.

Just to let you all know I'm not shooting from the hip here, let me tell you what i see:

1) VIX is at resistance and despite a down market day, is down nicely.

2) QQQQ, SPY and DIA all UP today.

3) QQQQ bouncing off nice trendline

4) DIA and SPY at support

5) market oversold, at least short-term.

So again, Dow up 150 today.

Michelle, I am doing better on the entries as I hit that brick wall once already. In reviewing my trades the entries are good or at least fair and nearly all were good in my direction but I held too long or not long enough. Too long for me at this point. Also I had 12-14 trades going like you with small 1-2 contracts each and I was told I was runnning my own mutual fund. For me I think that is more than I can manage without problems because of other things I am doing and it adds too much pressure (thanks Liz). I am really looking forward to the day I get a GTRC, X or big runner.
Brett, thanks for the heads up on BSC maybe that will be the one.

James,
None of them look just awful. I suppose it matters when you got into them. I am not one to be giving advice these days, but maybe you should pepper your trading with half stock and half options to limit your risk.

Michelle

Brett, I am seeing this too and it is not reflected in my account at all. The trades I thought about entries for today I have not and am waiting to see where the market goes. Brett the bigger picture view from you is greatly appreciated.

At the current time it looks like RL and JCOM are bouncing if interested in catching the elevator for the ride up!

Brett, thanks for your Market Analysis, that does help build confidence in the day's market!

From Jeff's watchlist:

JWN broke below 50 today.

liz

Jeff:
That was one of the best explanations of trading strategies/ exit plans I have read!!!!
I'm sorry you weren't able to sleep but am grateful for the results---it is a great tool for clarifying one's definition of trading approach.
Thank you!!

Bob,
Most of my trades are stock trades, which helps a lot. The draw-down isn't as much in times like this. That was a switch I made several months ago, was not doing so many option trades, but more stocks. It has helped preserve my capital. The gain is not as much, but I am still learning, so preservation of capital is Number 1 for me right now.

Michelle

Oh forgot, the DECK of the elevator is heading back up too!

Good afternoon everyone,

I was just wondering if anyone here had any firm rules when the Fed is speaking. I know I have been absolutely slaughtered before on announcment days and I swore I would never do it again. Ive heard the technical analysis doesnt do much for you during. Anyone have any insight? Thanks.

Stephen

Liz, JWN looks good do you jump in intraday? I like Michelle am second guessing myself at this point.
Michelle I had 30% stocks in this account but my 401k is all stocks so I guess it depends on if I look at this account as separate which I normally do.

Jeff
Great post. I think that is what I was looking for when I asked you about exiting a profit trade. Now, what about the concept of not letting a winner trade become a loser? If a stock retests new sup/old res and break thru it, chances are that would be a loss (I mean loss not a bad trade).
PCU is a tipical example. Went up, came down and today it broke. I got5 out in the red but did not lose more than 1% of my account.
What are your thoughts?

Stephen,

I have some rules for when the Fed is speaking, but they're kind of complicated and difficult to follow, so I'll try and lay them out carefully:

(Note: You're going to need a cold beer for this one, and it's better with more people)

1) Each time CNBC cuts to an expert for an analysis, take a drink.

2) Each time CNBC tries to tell you what this means for the market, take a drink.

3) Each time the market shifts direction following the announcement, take 2 drinks.

Just kidding. Seriously, the only rule I have is don't do anything immediately following the announcement, since it's pretty volatile. The market tends to shift gears a few times before choosing a direction. And be aware of the following day. Sometimes you can go to bed all warm and fuzzy and wake up with an anvil dropped on your head. And vice versa.

Just play your trends and filter out the rest.

Brett, Tim, Congrats on GTRC. You Guys deserve a lobster filled Burrito for lunch! Keep up the good trading! Bob, The FED speaks tomorrow. This post was delayed

Brett, I now look forward to Fed days. Thank you sir.

Brett,
You are sooo funny. Congrats to all in the GTRC trade. What a great break for you guys. Yahoo!!

Well, Brett, I was gonna make home-made Mexican food for dinner, but I burned the beans this a.m.(laughter.) We are having enchiladas and rice with blackeyed peas now. That's what I get for neglecting my domestic duties.
Have a burrito and a white mocha for all of us.

Michelle

What a strange day in my trades all my trades are in the red but ROG. Both calls and puts are red today. Trying to look at the charts and not the account but this is just too weird.

Hi everyone

You might want to check out TDW - looks like a good entry point today. Also, from Jeff's watchlist a few weeks ago - NKE is finally breaking above resistance.

Happy Trading

I had the WM this morning (more out of habit than superstition). Amazingly, once you give up on it, it seems to deliver. I'm probably going to CMG today too, though since i'm carrying puts I don't really want to add to their bottom line any more. But old habits die hard. Plus the burrito bowl is special.

Bob(and Pam)-

I do not 'normally' trade intra day. I'm not very good at that yet. I 'usually' wait until the end of the day to take most of my trades with a few exceptions here and there. That includes when I 'normally' exit. For me it depends on the stock and how it 'normally' moves which helps me determine my wait time. And I look at the volume and price movement of the stock. I'm still perfecting this aspect. Did you see how many times I used 'normal'? ;-)

liz

Thanks Jeff. A great use of non-sleep time! And thanks everyone for your honest comments. This all helped me spot why I've been nervous this week. I've done OK with risk management trade by trade (OK a couple of options beyond my risk) but I haven't been paying attention to my total at risk amount -- too many open positions = too much total risk. As part of my learning I've been trading 2 contracts at a time so I can exit 1 at my target and let 1 run to see what happens. This worked great in the stronger bullish market but not now. I ran some numbers this morning and found out my total. Oops! At least now I know and can scale back some more and stay within my rules. A beginner's mistake! So much to learn and since I always like to remind myself of what I have to be grateful for. I'm grateful for this wild market because it is giving me lots of opportunities to learn with small amounts of money! On my way with all this great help and support to being the awesome trader I know I can be!!! Thank you, thank you. Back to the ride.
Katherine from Molalla, Oregon

Bob Raimo,
You there? GOOG down, but right at support. Depending on how the market goes the next day or two, looks like a good place to add. I feel like a deer in the headlights, just frozen. Probably won't take any action, even though the chart looks good until the market confirms one way or the other. What say you?

Michelle

NEM- 5 year chart. descending triangle from about the beginning of Jan 06. Big crayon line of support around 38ish. Good level of support around 35. This one just keeps going down and down. Keep on watch list. Decide what you think might be a good entry.

liz

A listener emailed Jeff & Eric about this stock.

CTV- maybe a good re-entry. It's down slightly today and touching support. This seems to move nicely even when the market has been going down.

liz

Brett,

i'm ready for that 150pt move,,,actualy i noticed that puts are at a year high right now according to IBD chart that i saw yesterday.

sue

Liz,

CTV is buying Andrew cable maker for $2.6 Billion, so it's price is down. Otherwise, might be a bounce, although not sure what impact short trading would be like in this scenario.

Hey all,
I've been reading this blog for a few weeks now but this is my first post since I've been a little hesitant to talk. I guess better now than never. All your ideas have been great, and the support of everyone is incredible. I'm new to trading (about 7 months now)
I feel like I've been just taking everyone elses ideas and havent had anything to really contribute.

came across STE nice trend, looks like its been consolidating for a few days now.

I plan on staying more involved with all of you,

gh
Long Island, NY

WFR, FCX look like support bounces today.

James H.

Look at the flag on ARD, 8 - 9 pt move, no breakout yet, anticipatory at this point (today), hitting average volume at mid-day...this flag will be flying!

Welcome Greg!

FCX bouncing hard - charging up quickly.

James H.

I am thinking that PCFB and BEAV have broken down. Comments?

MLM-
looks to good even if the options are a little expensive. However the risk to reward is in my favor.

Consensus I'm in.;)

Grant

Arty

I think Beav is at a great entry point, If I was in PFCB I'd stay, but if your looking to enter the risk maybe hard to manage

Grant

New post...

OIH: Bouncing today inside channel.

Peter

Burrito time. See you guys in a little while.

I would like to share something with you all! I have 47 positions on right now. My theta is .67 cents. I usally avg. between $200.00 to 300.00 a day. I realize next week will probally be slow and with a holiday. What I'm trying to say is that I trimmed back my theta any thoughts on this subject?

Brett,
OK here we go. $INDU just bounced off of 13300 and I guess this is it. The 150? Is it going to have enough juice?

Cheers

Whoa,
Optionfanatic, 47 positions? Did I read that right? How can you even manage them all? Hope you are holding okay in this market.

Michelle

Grant,
MLM looks like a good entry point IF the market turns up. I am already all in, so just holding for now.

Michelle

Michelle, I know whoa nellie! Many of my positions are broken wing butterflies, spreads, strangles & straddles, etc. It isn't as many as it sounds. It keeps me busy that's for sure! Many are exspiring with June Quarterly

Judy,

The trend trader is still in the trade! That was my point. In figure 3, the comment points to the bottom of the chart, which the price hasn't hit yet.