As traditional Monday's go, I am working my way through the watchlist this week to line up fabulous stocks for everyone to analyze. It is taking longer than expetced since I keep finding reasons to get up and walk away.

I was reading in the comments today a comment about trading Iron Condor's. I pulled this comment from ToS about the strategy and how it has performed over the last 8 months...

Month 8 experimental results in posted by: Tom Preston on Mar 16, 2007, 11:14 am

The SPX settlement 1396.12 was a mile away from the profitable zone of the March 1420/1425/1495/1500 experimental iron condor. The max loss of $2,000 was achieved, which makes that the second max loss for the iron condors in eight months. The iron condor experimental account earned 14.05 in interest, and ended the expiration with a net liq of $8,727. The experimental long SPY position added $45.03 from a .57 quarterly dividend, leaving that positions net liq at $11,142, solidly ahead of the iron condors. The iron condors will need a string of 5 winners to catch up. That's possible, but so is the possibility of the big market moves that kill the strategy. We'll see what month 9 holds.

Net liq SPX iron condors $8,727

Net liq SPY shares $11,142

This discussion is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a trade recommendation.

Recommendation: Thank goodness I don't trade Iron Condors (Hint).

Long: HWCC since I am the most disciplined trader on earth to hold on to a 4% retracement. Ouch.

Short: Iron Condors

My RS calls are offsetting the HWCC retrace. I got smoked out of WCG last week. WCG hit my mental stop and I got out. Today it iss bouncing up. I am in HWCC until it closes below 25.50 .

I have to decide if I want add to the position on a retest.

Jeff and fellow Traders,

I experienced my worst losses with SPX Iron Condors. I have traded Iron Condors on Google, SPX and RUT: You can make a little money, but you need lots of Malox.

I will post my SPX day trading scalp stategy later.

Trade Well,


HWCC was looking ugly this morning,but it's fighting back. Hang in till the end of day and then decide. Is a bearish engulfing enough to exit,considering how far it's retraced? Any thoughts?


P.S. FSLR is looking nice for a possible entry.

Never have done an Iron Condor as I am not much of a spread trader I am finding for reasons similar to what Jeff has detailed before. Ouch, I did not see that on TOS - thanks Jeff. TOS spread hacker seems to be well populated with Iron Condors though. I am in there with you on HWCC and it is the only down trade I have today, so far. PCAR was doing great but slowed, HES and CAL are pulling my account right now.
Bob H.

$27 should act as support for HWCC. It did penetrate earlier, but has rebounded. We'll see what the end of the day brings.

Also doing well with X, PCAR on the bullish side and LEH on the bearish side.

Prematurely exited RATE and VIP on Friday, DOH!

Joel R.

Anyone hop on to the symmetrical triangle breakout on CME? Up $9.50 and rising.

Joel R.

I guess I better not post about Iron condors, I have a feeling it is not welcomed. Although the strategy has worked for me, $10 spreads on each side and staying 100 points out.It even worked on the last mini correction. Yes you need nerves of steel. There is an instructor that trades the rut iron condors that likes the strategy. Sorry no more on this issue.

Did anyone take the PSA bear trade? Any thoughts on this one.

David S

I have read through that TOS thread on iron condors. The operative word is 'experimental'. Tom makes no attempt to reverse the original trade or close out before settlement... Michael Drew and John Jagerson do these every month with their 'stay rich' pile of money so there has got to be some good in doing them after you make money with directional trades. --Pat

David, don't feel like you can't say anything you want. Even if it is about spreads. Comments from other experienced traders help the inexperienced traders learn. Keep it coming!

I picked up some BEAV (retest)and grabbed some CTSH bouncing off 85 at 1:00pm.....

Letting X run along with PCP, VIP, CAL and GRP..

Oh, and Brett...letting my wings fly too (BWLD)...

thanks again buddy...

Iron Condors? Who said anything about Iron Condors? Hmmmm not me. No sir. Maybe paper ones. Just little guys.

Joel, I'm thinking that CME is trying to fake you out. There's no volume there and even though it's up over $12.50 it's only 2.5% and I don't see a breakout happening. If it breaks out, I think the volume will be very large and I think it'll break with a much larger percentage jump (either way.)

Well, I've missed out on X for now. It's way up at a peak and I'm expecting a retracement of some sort. Then I'll have a look at it. I got stopped out of HWCC today as I was going to be away from the computer for the day (I thought.) So, of course, I sold at the bottom. When, oh when, will these trading rules grind themselves into this thick head of mine?

Do as I say, not as I do.

Chris and Catherine

Amx anyone?

David S


The only good I can make out of it based on the running 8 month track record, is to offset your wins on the directional trades.


C&C, you may be right. It wouldn't be the first time CME fooled me. Having said that, I still took the trade. I figure the market is poised to move higher, if it does, CME will probably follow trend. If not I'm hoping to take the small loss quickly and get out.

Joel R.

C & C

I avoided CME as well.....too risky for me, better trades out there..

I like the way ATI is setting up...

I have trendlines drawn on CME such that $560 is likely the next resistance point.

Man, it's hard to play bounces on CTSH and then watch stocks like HOLX and HIBB break skyward like the 4th of July. Patience is not only a virtue, but the foundation of a trading career.

Also, aren't the Iron Condors a Mid-Major team?

I agree about ATI. It's sitting right on a strong rising support line and just about ready to break through that $110 resistance. I'm so confident in it that I'm tempted to jump in right now. The only down side is that earnings are coming out in 3 weeks. Don't know if that's going to be enough time. Hmmmmmmmm. Anyone got any ideas on this one?

Brett, glad to hear your virtue is intact (patience-wise anyway.) I struggle with my patience continually. HWCC was a perfect example of that today. Got in before I should have and then bailed before I should have. EVERYBODY PANIC!!!! That's my motto.

Just got in from taking the girls riding and am beat (no they didn't ride ME...) so to bed I must go. I'll get up early and get some homework done tomorrow morning. Looking forward to it as I think I smell a good week coming up.

Chris and Catherine.

ATI Looks good to me, If it breaks I may do about 1/3 of my usual position and plan on holding the lottery ticket over earnings, or loosing all of the value. Volitility will likely drom out of sight, so I will need to run real #'s and see what the risk/reward will be with the Vol dropping about 10% points.

I took AMX today, but didn't feel the stars lining up. I have a bunch of longs and only a couple shorts on right now. Because of that I only took 1/2 position on that also.

Out of VIP. Got in wrong and needed to cut the loss. If it explodes tomorrow I may get back in.

Everyone have a great and profitable week.

Quote of the day from a co-worker today. "I just closed my GT stock. I have owned if for over 2 years I bought it at 16 something so how much higher can it go" ......
He rode it from 16 to below 10 and then gets out on a beautiful up trend. I just ate my yogurt and agreed with him. I have told him about investools but he says he will listen when I make my tuition up..... Hope it won't take too long.

I got in on the PSA put on the 27th and am still in it as I was unable to watch the market and panic today.Looks like we may take a hosing on this one. I will try to watch it closely tomorrow. At this point I guess the correct thing is to watch for a confirmation of that bullish candle for an exit.

Chico CA

hi everyone

i will be able to sit down and post back testing results for the trading system i listed this coming thursdsay.

i can't wait to follow the "shadow trader", thanks for that !!

i would love to hear the "making the transition to full time trader" story.

well thats all for now, its after midnight and "we" had a mastermind meeting in orlando tonight (long drive)
good night/good morning
tonya w
daytona beach

I took a bearish trade on PSA and gave myself until may, but I can see the 30 day ma and 97.50 as resistance. The macd and stoch also look overbought, but like Jeff says price is king. The only bad thing going is that it pays a very good dividend and a lot of investors are jumping into these stocks as the market is uncertain. A close over 97.50 should be my line in the sand.

Jeff what do you think about PSA?

Thank David S (no iron condors on this one? :)

Good Morning all - Jeff...again-nice call. Gators by 10 (9 is within the acceptable range). Wish it had been a better game. Oden was amazing though.

Regrets to those who lost in HWCC - Brett thanks for reminding me not to get emotional and chase the gap up on that trade. I hope it's found some support and is about to rise. I still have it on my radar as the volitility of that May call has now retraced all the way back to its starting point.

Cramer last night had some kind words about KMP which should improve my current sideways position in the stock. Has anyone ever bought a stock and then tried to call the show. If you get on and he doesn't recommend the stock would likely do nothing, but his stocks do have that blind follower affect.

At the end of the day I sold my position in PCP. Bob, please keep me updated on how well you do coming into June. With the institutional money leaving and the slight downturn in the trend, I wanted to apply the money in other trades.

I'm looking at long: NIDX, EIX and short ASF.

Hopefully the current positions of WCG, RS, PCAR and KMP will continue to rise. I'm almost back to my pre- Feb 27 portfolio size. HOw quickly it leaves the account and how painstaking it is to get it back!!

Happy trading.



I think you bailed out too early on PCP, but I hope that whatever you divert that money to treats you well!


I think you bailed out too early on PCP, but I hope that whatever you divert that money to treats you well!

Well the good news is that I have no Iron Condors. Turns out (upon further evaluation) it's more of an iron butterfly. It's like a condor with no body.

Tom (deGroot) I hear you on your co-worker. I got into stocks in my 401k with investools a year and a half ago and made 80% on it in the first year, and 30% on my stuff outside of it. I made my tuition and Orlando and Chicago all in the first year. Then I got into options. Steep learning curve but I have confidence it's going to become a full-time job.

David S I agree with you on PSA. This support around the $95 is very, very strong (a lot like me, unless Catherine needs some heavy lifting done) and if it breaks through it I think it could be a wild ride. The only downside is that I see it exploding out of the gate downwards and you (well.... not you because you're already in it. But me, because I'm not) could lose a lot of the movement on it's first day.

oops that last one was by C & C.
Gary, I have to agree with the White Mocha Dude on PCP. I have had a couple of real winners and the trick is to let them run. I think PCP has a lot more gas in the tank. And besides, Brett's on a roll right now. Don't doubt him. However how can I doubt someone who's back to his pre- Feb 27 level? I'm planning on being back there by the end of the year. Slow but painstakingly sure. The drum beat you hear is Catherine hitting my head with a hammer.
Well.... today's another day. Let's get out there and make some money!
Chris and Catherine

The White Mocha Dude? LOL! Reminds me of Jeff Lebowski.

Anyway, NO ONE should get shaken out of CAL today. It's going to make a lower high and go back down. Stay with it!!

Looks like PCP is jumping too. And CTSH is bouncing for all you who got gunshy yesterday.

Sadly, my ATR is in jeopardy of being hit today on WNR. It's pretty volatile today but that would be a sad ending to a great run on this one. Nevertheless, i will WAIT until the close to make a decision!

Back from surfing in Hawaii. Now I wait a few weeks for the water to get a little warmer in New Jersey. A quick one to add here is RTP. It has had a nice consolidation for almost a year after a huge move up. Now it has broken an ascending triangle with a potential 50 point move over the next 5-6 months. I bought the reversal up from the small flag patter break on 3/29.

Long: RS, X, RTP, ICE, SPX 1380/1360 April Bull Put spread
Short: SPX April 1450/1460 Bear Call Spread



Get white mochas!! LOL

sorry you bailed on PCP..I am still in it..and I painted my office mocha...

I wish some of us could communicate during the day faster to offer support and insight. I use BWLD as a good example, I had thought about getting out, but Bretts comment caught me at the right timeand I am still in the trade. I think a good support group like everyone here helps, at least it does for me.

I bailed out at yesterdays close on CAL, took my profits happily..

OK Bob,

15 minutes into trading and you can already do an "I told you so" on PCP! I don't regret the exit though, there was some sound reasoning in the exit...I just wish I had Jeff's crystal ball.

Jeff can we get some duck tape on that ball???


Anyone have any thoughts on GOOG??

Gary not at all....

I've done the same.

I was just trying to reiterate my thoughts on a support group that can communicate seems a lot of us are on the computer all day, I know for me being able to chat with you and others could only help....there are some smart folks included..

I'm liking the BEAV.....

I've had great trades on BNI,it is on my radar..

Brett I agree with you on CAL but was stopped out before I got to the computer this morning! I had moved my stop to nearly my breakeven so had a small loss but it is tough to go from a winner to loser in the first 30 minutes of the day. Bob what did you see to trigger your close of CAL yesterday? I agree on the comment about getting support from this wise group and also wish communications could be faster. I check this blog often during the day and mostly see little action until the evening or morning. I also tried to get into WCG with a limit last night but will not fill and do not what to run after the trade.
Bob H.

Bob H.


3/14 and 3/29 were lows around $35, and that $35 support line I had drawn in extended through all the volume when it broke through 35 back around Oct when the price bounced off it yesterday, I figured why get greedy, take my profit and get out. I got beat up really bad in I have a lot of ground to make up.

Looking at today, glad I did. If CAL continued to drop in price today, I was still happy with my profit yesterday. I cannot afford to be too greedy these days..The mochas ain't cheap...


Is anyone in this trade from 3/19? Earnings coming up and the stock is not moving a whole lot..I am getting cold feet here....

Thanks Bob! I see your thought process. Where were you last night when I was making my decision on raise stop or close. Actually my plan worked and I followed my plan so moving onward and upward. Thanks for the insight and help. I have a lot of ground to make up too and was further ahead yesterday than I am today...
Bob H.

Bob H.

I was (am) being very conservative here...Normally I would let my winner run..but I decided to take the profit. I do agree with Brett on CAL making a lower high..I may even grab some puts bouncing off todays resistance..I am watching it as we speak.


earnings are in 2 weeks. i would be very careful putting new money into CAL.

I have a good bearish idea for today. AGU retest of sym triangle break. really nice target of $33.50 should be hit by earnings in 3 weeks. I know most of you proabably aren't thinking bearish anything today, but these are the days where you get really nice put entries.

Gary D,

You are out on HWCC????

What happened?

Did you set a stop on an out the money option???

Did anyone else get out???


Brett, + Bob

I agree on CAL, I'm hanging in there. Bob if you want more communication you could set up a chat with AIM through aol its a free service. Just a suggestion.


I am still in HWCC as the plan was to go OTM although it cost me more than my limit the night before (from $0.55 to $0.90) I position sized to allow no stop and loss of the full $0.90 so I guess I am in until the end. This is a new strategy for me but I understand the concept and wanted to try it as I love the no emotion concept here. If I am willing to lose the whole $0.90 why watch it and worry? Keep in mind I am new at this...What is AIM chat?
Bob H.

Is anyone here on/in a chat ??

I'm with you on the more instant chatting for support. I would have loved to of had some more support for PCP. It is FLYING today! Glad that WCG is still leading the way.

Now that I have a couple of sales people doing the selling for me, I might be able to check in more frequently on some days. I wonder if Jeff could get an instant message service that could be a seperate post or something.

I'd suggest just starting a Yahoo chat but then I'd be afraid that the blog would suffer. Anyone have any ideas?


TOL..double bottom?? Any thoughts?? I see $27 as strong support...

I can't do IM here at work, but i do have an AIM account and will be using it when i trade full time in a couple months. Everyone is free to email me if they want to. However, i think this blog is a great site to exchange ideas. Why?

NO OPTION ADDICTS should be making trading decisions before the final 2 hours of trading anyway, so there's plenty of time to get questions answered and post trade ideas.

Take a look at WNR and ask yourself if you would have done your account any favors by selling it this morning as you probably would have wanted to.

I caught a beautiful breakout on AHG. Makes up for the Buckeye loss last night.

Stopped out on Cal at breakeven. The large upswing seems overdone just based on lower oil prices....

Ohio Rick

Without this site, instant messaging is pointless. Too many things here to learn, like Brett pointed out, ideas to exchange. A chat room is ideal, and who knows what tricks Jeff has up his sleeve for the future??

I personally like the idea of INSTANT GRATIFICATION, ie; chat versus waiting to read what is posted, with the exception of Jeffs Commentary and such. But I would not want to see chat replace the blogging either...way too much information and ideas on the blogging that is always here to read...and not everyone can chit chat all day long like I could...but it would be a great tool.

Anyway, I am always on yahoo IM at

Tonya or Jeff, (or anyone that has traded the indexes):
I was wondering how to apply Fib's when trading short term. This page from Stacy's talk at the conference was not clear.

How about BUD?

I think there is news about them opening in china and the chart looks good on a break out. There is a chance it could hit 55 in the next month or so. I have been chasing BUCY but I think I should wait until lunch time maybe it will come down a little.

What do you guys and gals think?


Drawing fib's from Stacey's class in orlando was based on the previous day's high and low,if those are broken then the next support and resistance.

Hope this helps.


Bob again I agree with you and am excited to see Jeff's last post and what he is planning. I find this blog too valuable to move to something else. Today's chat volume is great but I like many am not able to be at the computer all day.
Bob H.

I like the look of TAP better than BUD myself. I missed the trade, but am watcing TAP for a new entry point.

Bob H..

did I miss something? What is Jeff planning??

Bob, Jeff just added a post see that for his comments. I was in TAP and was tapped out. You find a re-entry I am in with you.
Bob H.

Thanks Sarah,
That helps a lot.

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About me

  • I'm Option Addict
  • From Saratoga Springs, Utah, United States
  • I am a professional trader and an instructor for Investools. I've had relations with the markets for 9 years. Born in Concord, CA, but reside in Saratoga Springs, Utah. Father of THREE, Husband of one.
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